WDEL Blog: Allan Loudell

UK tabloid picks up story of Hockessin restaurant caught in social media snafu

The story of insulting internet postings about customers' behavior and tipping at Hockessin's Padi restaurant now appears in London's DAILY MAIL, with many more photos than in the NEWS JOURNAL's original story.

The person whose account was connected to the derogatory postings - Aaron Kwan, who is actually the manager (and the nephew of Padi owner Eve Teoh) - remains on indefinite unpaid leave. But there's the strong suggestion that an employee or employees accessed Kwan's Instagram and Facebook accounts.

Padi owner Eve Teoh apologizes to customers / diners in an open letter.

Teoh also owns the Rasa Sayang Malaysian Cuisine restaurant in the Independence Mall shopping center along Concord Pike. (I've been there a few times. Excellent!)

Anyway, here's the link to the DAILY MAIL's account...


Posted at 7:27am on April 25, 2013 by Allan Loudell

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Comments on this post:

Mike from Delaware
Thu, Apr 25, 2013 7:59am
Sorry, can't wait for Friday's Open Forum, the story on WDEL.com about Colonial School District's cuts is what's on my mind this morning.

The numbers of staff cuts is telling of what's important to the district. They're cutting the important folks, teachers, custodians, paraprofessionals, and specialists, BUT not one, None, Nada, Zilch Administrators are being cut. You know those folks who push a pencil all day and don't teach any classes, but yet pull in 6-figure salaries. Oh, of course not, that would be some of them who make these decisions [I'll vote to keep your job if you vote to keep mine]. Naturally the district said, we can lower the number of folks laid-off if the public passes this upcoming referendum.

It's a shame these clowns who run the schools aren't more interested in how to make that diploma worth something, so that the product you and I pay for as taxpayers is something of value. Many of the kids graduating can't read their diplomas or even know how to give back change to a customer unless the computer at the store tells them how much to give back. Most of the kids graduating have no marketable skills that even McDonald's wants [there was a story recently about a McDonald's requiring a college degree for their entry-level position, for saying, "Would you like a hot apple pie with that?"].

Fix those problems and I'd gladly vote yes for the referendum, but their solution always is throw more money at the problem, but continuing to do the same failed stuff that didn't work before. Their mantra is do it for the children, and ignore what we don't do correctly.

Funny, how private schools can give a far superior education for way less money. One reason is they have discipline, the students either follow the rules or they're out. It's time for the public schools to do something similar. Start a statewide district for those problem kids who are the bullies, and troublemakers. They are a big part of the problem in today's schools. That way the kids who actually want to learn something will have a better opportunity to do so which will allow the teachers to spend far more of their time teaching and not being a cop.

All kids are entitled to have the opportunity to get a good education, but they are NOT entitled to keep the other kids from having that same opportunity and that's what's happening in too many classrooms today.

It's way past time to take back our schools and make them centers of learning again. Do that and the districts won't have any problems getting referendums passed. People don't mind paying for quality schools that turn out a quality product, but who in their right mind wants to pay more for a lousy product that seems to have no hope of ever improving.

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 8:22am
Once again we see a tool that can be used for good has instead been mis-used for not-so-good. It seems so easy to diss/attack people, thanks to the detachment offered by "social media". Almost everyone now has a smart phone and a facebook/twitter account and it is very easy to post anyone doing anything...what happened to respect? What happened to privacy?

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 8:27am
One of the most troubling factors of today's education reform is the need to bankrupt the educational process so you can rebuild it their image. I was shocked to see it spouted publicly at conventions by the Gates Foundation as well as the Broad Foundation. The idea is that you make the public school system so bad, that charters (in which you are an investee) can move in and get paid state tax money to educate your children.

For that reason, getting rid of administrators, many who have been trained by the Ely Broad foundation as superintendents (The past three Christina Board superintendents were Broad trained including Joe Wise (the first) who spent 19 million they didn't have) is not viable because they are the ones trained in the rebirth.

I know this sounds like a far-fetched plot from a bad James Bond movie (SPECTRA) and for years I thought those howling at it were a little misguided...

I only begin looking at it when a student showed me homework under common core and I realized like the Music Man in River City, we are getting scammed.

America had the best educational system in the world, until we began tearing it apart. This past year has been devastating. It appears the educational crises was manufactured just to sell us a bunch of goods....

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 8:28am
AllanLoudell: The Daily Mail? Really? No kidding. What's next? Links to supermarket tabloids? The Daily Mail is the ultimate collection of sleaze.

So what other Delaware News do we have today?

"Former Miss Teen Delaware who renounced her crown after porn video emerged wants to become a journalist

Melissa King, 19, must have enjoyed her time in the media spotlight as she has revealed that she wants to be a journalist and will be starting college this fall to pursue the career."

Watch for her resume in your in box.


"Don't get carried away, AJ! Bungling anchor fired for cursing with his first words on air tells Letterman about hopes for ESPN job"

In his interview with Dave, we also learn that A.J. Clemente, now enjoying his 15 minutes after dropping in F-bomb in his TV news debut in Bismark, ND, is from Delaware. Apparently, he couldn't get into the U of D and went to West Virgina. He's spent the last two years tending bar in Dewey Beach. He really wants to be a sportscaster, not a newscaster, but uttered the famous F-word in frustration because he couldn't figure out how to pronounce a name in a sports story.

Other highlights from today's Daily Mail....

"Naked woman 'crawls through strangers' doggie door before found sitting in the bathtub'"

"Where do cheaters take their dates? Morton's Steakhouse named top dining destination for adulterers"

"College student, 19 beaten to death by her boyfriend who 'handcuffed her and then brutally attacked her with dumbbell in the bath'"

"Revealed: The worst jobs in America (so if you're an actor, farmer or news reporter you might want to change career)" (If it's so bad, why do a Dewey Beach bartender and Miss Delaware want it?)

"Busted! Woman found with BRA stuffed with 333 folds of heroin after being stopped for 'erratic driving'"

"The jailed gang leader who has fathered FIVE children with FOUR female prison guards" (Baltimore has a great jail system)

"Jesus Christ was the original hipster claims Brooklyn church" (Ad features Jesus in red sneakers)

"Diabetes danger in just ONE sugary drink a day: Chance of developing Type 2 increases by a fifth" (Note: This includes Dr. Pepper)

"Romney intern stole nude photos of 15 women and threatened to put them on web unless victims sent him MORE racy photos "

"Doctors are nicer to THIN patients - because they have more respect for them"

You're not seeing the Daily Mail sold on the streets in Britain. If you go to the website from the US, you get a website for the US.

And this is maybe one percent of today's Daily Mail US headlines. So much for respectable journalism.

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 8:32am
Back to the tipping issue. I'm shocked, shocked, that people are upset they develop bad feelings in other people when they act rude, are derogatory, and display the worst side of human nature in public.

Before, waiters and waitresses just had to "take it"... So like slaves, they could be abused with impunity.

I wish the names were published and we could look up the addresses and 30,000 to 40,000 thousand service personnel protesters could show up at their house and chant "cheapskate,cheapskate, cheapskate... " or "20% is standard, 20% is standard, 20% is standard!"

These customers deserve every bit of bad publicity they get... stupid people.

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 9:34am
I used to work as a waiter/busboy/dishwasher and understand despising low tippers...but posting people's personal info and then having a mob show up is not the right response...that's what SEIU and OWS would/did do.
These cheapskate low-tippers will have the same happen to them (karma?) eventually, but posting their pics/name/address is going to end poorly. Back when I was a waiter, any repeat cheapskates would get far less service and smaller portions of food...if you were a really rude customer, our friend the cook sometimes "accidentally" messed-up your order.

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 9:39am
Let's look at the real problem: Brown v. Board of Education. A bad solution to a real problem. Brown resulted in the area's pizza-slice school districts. A terrible implementation of a bad solution. The result, in Colonial and a lot of other places, is not to make education better for Black or other children from impoverished families. The result has been to make education bad for everybody. Apparently, the political establishment feels that if something is bad for some (but not), the solution is to make it equally bad for all. In addition, Brown removed from possible consideration any solutions that might be considered separate but equal - despite evidence that minority children, boys and girls, or poor children have vastly different educational needs and that "one size fits all" schooling does not work for many.

Dweebs become teachers. Really dumb dweebs become administrators. Parasitic idiots get on school boards.


Tipping should be banned. Restaurant operators should be required to pay wait staff decent salaries. Tipping is for the benefit of the bosses. They pay wait staff less than minimum wage and get away with it on the assumption that wait staff get tips. Wait staff also have to pay taxes on the assumption they get tips. Waiting is a hard job and most people who do it have no other options. People who run restaurants are greedy SOBs (and the National Restaurant Association encourages them to be this way). Restaurants have the highest failure rate of any type of business - deservedly so.

At the very least, a minimum service fee should appear on all bills. If somebody thinks their wait person was exceptional, they can leave something extra. But they can't walk out and the wait staff gets nothing.

Sexual harassment of waitresses is endemic but nobody is willing to do anything about grabby restaurant bosses.

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 10:38am
So here we have two Wilmington-area restaurants infamously in the news in the same week, neither of which are places I would patronize anyway, as I'm more the truck stop/Cracker Barrel type. If this is the most compelling news story we can find right now, then I'd say we're doing pretty good.

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 11:24am
Just a comment on tipping: Most people are encouraged to tip between 15% and 20%. The tabs for each customer are calculated by the manager that the tip is 8%. That is the amount required by law. If the serving staff give above-average service, they often receive a tip that is above the rate the tax is based on. They make out fine.

Mike from Delaware
Thu, Apr 25, 2013 11:45am
JimH: Aren't the waiters/waitresses supposed to also claim that additional revenue and pay tax on it? Doesn't mean they do, but aren't they supposed to?

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 1:06pm

You should always tip your food server properly and NEVER engage negatively with your server. They have the ultimate control---of putting stuff in your food---without you ever knowing.

Again, NEVER get in a pissing match with your food server!

Mike from Delaware
Thu, Apr 25, 2013 1:37pm
Teatime: I the customer, have the final vote. True story.

There used to be a seafood place on Rt13/40 just below Hares Corner. Went to have dinner and was served, cold New England Clam Chowder. I politely asked her to reheat it as it was cold. She came back and it was lukewarm, I said, this soup still isn't hot. She replied, "Picky aren't we?" So I said no problem. She walked away, once she left, my wife and I got up and went to the checkout where folks were waiting in line to be seated. I politely, but loud enough so the waiting patrons could hear, explained what our problem was and then said, that we'd pay for our tea and coffee as that we consummed, but weren't sticking around for the rest. She said, we've had some problems with that waitress. She didn't charge us for the coffee or tea. We never went back. My wife and I voted with our feet, and our dining dollars were spent elsewhere. Not too long after that, the seafood restaurant was out-of-business.

So Waiters and Waitresses be warned, you deserved to be treated with respect, but you are NOT doing your customers a favor by gracing them with your presence. Leave the attitude at home. The point of dining out is to be waited on and not have to think about the preparation of the meal, etc. So if you can't do that, then find another job. The customer, as long as he/she is respective and polite, is always right. It's YOUR job to help inhance their "dining experience". A great waitress or waiter are real assets to a restaurant, mediocre or lousy waitresses/waiters can hurt a business.

I was always taught 15% was for normal service, less for poor service, great service 20%. I usually give 20%, because most times I do get great service and do appreciate that.

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 1:59pm
"A great waitress or waiter are real assets to a restaurant, mediocre or lousy waitresses/waiters can hurt a business.

I was always taught 15% was for normal service, less for poor service, great service 20%. I usually give 20%, because most times I do get great service and do appreciate that."

mike: Well said. There are quite a few places I've eaten at over the years that had OK food but great service...those are the places most enjoyed and had highest tips left at the table.

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 2:10pm
I'm still not convinced it is a bad idea to publicly shame people who abuse others... These people who get publicized did something to really irritate their server. There is no difference between abusing a server because you think he/she is beneath you and no one cares, than a cop thinking he can taze someone from PA because he's a cop and no one cares... But it gets video'd and it is an outrage across the entire state, resulting in forced leave and future investigations... Well, why did it take this long? Why didn't the 5 or 6 others who have now come out since we actually have video, and said ... that's him; he did exactly the same to me.

Because we didn't have video, that's why. The best way to control bad behavior is to expose it. If any of us here had pictures of us posted talking on a cellphone while in a car, published on the front page of the News Journal... we wouldn't do it again.... Nor would a lot of other people knowing someone was taking their pictures, which, if published, would readily identify them among their acquaintances and eventually be turned in....

In fact that is a great cheap idea to put teeth in that law.
A law that is necessary, but so overwhelmingly nanny-like.

So anyone and everyone who decides to put no tip on the table, decides to turn their full glasses upside down and slide the coasters out so it spills upon clean up, anyone who crumbles crackers across the entire table, anyone who writes a note saying "next time b----, give us free food if you want a tip", deserves, absolutely deserves not only to have their names out there, but their pictures and credit info for everyone to use... We could have them shot, but public humiliation is a bit more civilized...

It is not about the tip. It is only about abusing a fellow human being because you can. Similar to how we dealt with Muslims at Abu Gharib.... it should be legal to do what this person did....

And the public backlash NEEDS to be against the customer, just as if he/she was as hateful because he was a member of the KKK, Al Qaeda, or the Black Panthers, should be jailed.. Not the server or restaurant employee who is made a victim twice....

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 2:12pm
Mike from Delaware--The key part of your story is that you did not go back to the seafood restaurant. If you pulled the stuff you did and went back, there would no doubt be a hock of phlegm in your clam chowder. You would never even know.

Again, always be kind to your server and NEVER start a pissing match with your server. For your own good.

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 2:17pm
Sorry, Bill Smith, but I like the Daily Mail... When, in a hurry, it is the easiest way to get the stories being told the world over. Not everyone is highbrow and cares only about governmental stories. The Daily Mail is great because it gives one familiarity with all news, even if one doesn't take the time to read the spicy articles especially on line since you today get cookie'd as being "into" that sort of stuff. But, when a conversation about a "hot" topic goes on around you, you can say enough to show you are indeed "well" read... Now if you want alien news, the best is the Star and Enquirer, sold at supermarket aisles nationwide...

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 2:24pm
Actually the chances of having something done to your food are extremely small indeed.

Someone may know of someone who heard that it was rumored to have happened to someone else someone knew, but to actually accomplish such in any restaurant is practically impossible. It gets done in movies, because a lot of people would "like" to do it, and lack the guts. But as Mr. Pizza will attest, in the real world, where there are many people around, and most of them care seriously about their continued employment at that establishment, such an action may get some "word play" but never get actually done... It is just too hard and one would almost guaranteed to be seen and would then have to trust that he would not be ratted out and receive a criminal record. Far too risky for everyone but a hardened criminal who really doesn't care. Bottom line, it doesn't happen.

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 2:30pm
Mike... Waiters and waitresses are just as honest as the rest of the American population when it comes to paying taxes... They report all of it, every single penny, even stuff that has no paper trail and no one can ever discover how much it was; it all gets logged down as income so that the proper taxes can be assessed... They would do just as would almost every other single American would, say, if they received $40 dollars for helping out a friend... They would log it down and pay the proper taxes on it.

Allan Loudell
Thu, Apr 25, 2013 2:42pm

Thank you for all your comments. It's a delightful discussion.

Now, let me offer some different scenarios, which my wife and I have experienced at different times:

(1). Your're at a medium-tier chain restaurant. You have very little contact with your waiter/waitress, as different people deliver the food; ask if you'd like a refill on a soft drink; etc. If service from those others is wonderful or lousy, should the tip to the waiter/waitress who took your original order reflect that? What if you ask for a condiment, and it comes by the time your food has gotten cold or already consumed? Is that a reflection on your primary server? Does anyone know if servers at restaurants "share" the tip if several are involved? It can be a dilemma.

(2). You've ordered an appetizer, soup, or salad. What you planned as your preliminary item comes out at the same time as the main course. Is it your waiter/waitress's fault? Should that be reflected in the tip?

(3). You're at a restaurant and you notice other customers/diners - who arrived AFTER you did - are already getting their appetizers, salad, soup, or main meal. Is that your waiter/waitress's fault? This came up twice for us with the very same waitress at a Delaware chain pizza restaurant. The second time, we asked for the restaurant's manager on duty and complained to her. She said something about only having one functional microwave (which still didn't explain why other patrons seemed to be getting their food more quickly!) The manager wrote off most of the bill. Still tip the waitress based on the original amount?

(4). This seems to be a trend: More servers taking down your order by memory WITHOUT writing down your order. (Why would a server RISK doing this?) You get the wrong food, or it's not prepared as you specified. Reduce the tip?

(5). The waitress/waiter SITS DOWN at your table to take down an order. Is that a violation of personal space? (This especially annoys my wife!) Does anyone like this kind of familiarity? Reduce the tip?

(6). The waitress/waiter removes dishes not just from the edge of the table, but leans in - perhaps arms extending past your nose - to retrieve plates. Worse, the server asks YOU to hand over plates, bowls. Reduce the tip? Or understandable, for an overworked server?

(7). You pay cash and the server rounds out the amount owed. In the restaurant's favor. Not just pennies or nickels, but sometimes to the nearest dollar, even five dollars! (Is this a generational thing?) Okay with you? Or would it be appropriate to reduce the tip? If a server makes change with a big bill is that a subliminal "hint" that the server wants that bill returned as a "tip".

(All this has happened so often, that lately, when paying cash, we've tried to offer the EXACT cash amount, then put bills down for the tip later!)

(8). Has anyone noticed that at certain establishments, if you're consuming water or soft drinks, the server doesn't check as often for refills as for the next table where the diners are drinking beer, wine, or mixed drinks? (Maybe the perception is psychological!)

(9). If, for whatever reason, you DO choose to offer a reduced tip, would you consider it appropriate & helpful - or out of line - to try to TELL your server, politely, before leaving the establishment, the reasons?

P.S. (Interesting, considering the catalyst for this very post, but we've actually found smaller, family-owned, ethnic restaurants to be often MORE customer-friendly, avoiding most of the things mentioned above!)

Does anyone know if certain restaurants actually TELL their servers to do some of the above (Sitting at a table to take the order; retrieving plates from the far side of the table, even asking the diners to assist; rounding off change; etc.)

Allan Loudell

Mike from Delaware
Thu, Apr 25, 2013 3:33pm
What bothers me Allan is the waitress clearing the table. That means she's also cleared other people's tables. Does she wash her hands before handling the silverware, bringing the drinks, and food? At one restaurant where the waitresses clear the tables the waitress brought my coffee and held the empty cup where you put your mouth rather than by the handle. Then they pour your coffee into your cup from a coffee pot. The point is where were her hands prior to putting them where my mouth is supposed to go? Restaurants should be required by law to have specific people to clear tables, not the waitress.

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 4:07pm
"P.S. (Interesting, considering the catalyst for this very post, but we've actually found smaller, family-owned, ethnic restaurants to be often MORE customer-friendly, avoiding most of the things mentioned above!)"

I have found the same to generally be true of smaller mom & pop restaurants but also find the workers at Chik-fil-A to be very courteous and helpful (very refreshing).

Mike from Delaware
Thu, Apr 25, 2013 4:27pm
EarlGrey: My experience at Chik-fil-A is the same. It's like stepping back in time as those folks are VERY polite and customer-oriented [they have fresh real flowers on their tables {at their Bear, DE. location}, someone walks around and asks if you'd like a refill - remember this is a fast-food place so no tipping of the help]. I keep waiting for Wally and the Beaver to come in for a malt.

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 5:37pm
Chick-Fil-A: The homophobic restaurant! Like stepping back in time in more ways than one. It's also a fast-food restaurant, so it really doesn't belong in a discussion of tipping. And the owners belong in jail for their discriminatory practices. But they are religious bigots, so MikeFromDelaware can't help trying to promote them. Shame on you, MikeFromDelaware. "Least of these, my bretheren" includes gays. Only go to Chick-Fil-A to picket.

Back to restaurants with table services, wait staff and tipping: The thing I hate is wait staff who want to do everything on their schedule. They bring the menus without being asked. They want to take the orders without being called. They bring together things that should arrive separately (i.e., soup with entree). They bring separately things that should arrive together. They barge into a conversation to ask "is everything all right"? (the worst offense). When you do want them, they are not in the room or (worse) manage always to look away. When you want to leave, you can't get their attention to ask for the check (really stupid to annoy customers right before they calculate the tip). In really good restaurants, the wait staff never initiate an interaction and are always right there when you want them. In really good restaurants, a disproportionate share of the wait staff is gay, so homophobes probably won't eat there any way.

Part of the problem is restaurants' bad management. They tell wait staff to be friendly ("Hi, I'm ..."). They should not be part of the dining experience. They should be invisible and unobtrusive - like a light switch. You don't think about it until you want to turn on a light. Then the light comes on. You'd think all those PBS Brit dramas would teach people something about good service but apparently not.

Mike from Delaware
Thu, Apr 25, 2013 6:47pm
Billsmith: Least of these does not mean accepting sinful behavior as being OK. Chick hires all sorts of folks, and from what I understand, that includes gays/lesbians. Just because the owner's faith beliefs do not consider gay/lesbian lifestyles to be a fine alternative lifestyle, but sin per the Bible, doesn't make him or Chick homophobes as long as he doesn't allow his views to NOT comply with the EOE laws, etc. That's hating the sin, but loving the sinner [doesn't mean accepting or OKing sinful behavior], which is what we are supposed to do.

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 7:42pm
MikeFromDelaware: It's funny. You object when entertainers voice their "beliefs" (usually culturally liberal). But you think it's admirable when some greedy rich guy tries to force his "beliefs" on employees and uses his business as a platform for bigotry. Jesus tells his followers not to be hypocrites, not to practice piety before men, not to pray in the public square, not to judge... but Christians with their highly selective use of scripture, seem incapable of minding their own business. Even you, pick out of scripture what suits you. No wonder the Bible is always right when you can make it say whatever you want. I wonder if this Chick-Fil-A guy has ever read the bit about a camel going through the eye of a needle.

Let's face it: The reason you come on here plugging Chick-Fil-A is because they are anti-gay rights and marriage equality. Were you are regular customer before? Probably not. I suppose you've started driving a couple of hours to go to Hobby Lobby, too.

Besides, Chick-Fil-A is tight-fisted. No re-fills on soda and they fill the cups all the way to the top with ice.

The original name of Chick-Fil-A was "Dwarf House." Kind of name you'd expect from a bigoted Georgia redneck, who likes shoving his religion (and all his other opinions) in people's faces. Christians are spiritual bullies.

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 8:30pm
billsmith: Watch what you say about Christians. You may become one someday.

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 9:34pm
I wasn't attempting to start another anti-Christian rant from bill...just stating that Chik-fil-A has great service and nice people tend to work there.

"8). Has anyone noticed that at certain establishments, if you're consuming water or soft drinks, the server doesn't check as often for refills as for the next table where the diners are drinking beer, wine, or mixed drinks? (Maybe the perception is psychological!)"

No, it's not your imagination...heavy drinkers tend to tip a lot better;)

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 9:45pm
"Actually the chances of having something done to your food are extremely small indeed.

Someone may know of someone who heard that it was rumored to have happened to someone else someone knew, but to actually accomplish such in any restaurant is practically impossible. It gets done in movies, because a lot of people would "like" to do it, and lack the guts."

As someone who worked at several restaurants over the years (high and low end) let me say it does indeed happen. Many of the cooks and servers are making a little over minimum wage and know their co-workers won't "rat them out" to the boss...especially if the customer is as obnoxious as those you described.

Mike from Delaware
Thu, Apr 25, 2013 11:13pm
Billsmith: Chick doesn't try to force their beliefs on their employees. Mr. Cathy was asked that question in an interview on a Christian Radio Talk Show [what should he have done lied about what his beliefs are], whereas your liberal Hollyweird celebrities spout their political agendas at concerts folks paid to go see/hear them perform their musical talent, very different. I'd have the same problem with the three conservative entertainers that also reside in Hollyweird.

Each time I've been to the Chick in Bear, they always offer refills, they walk around, come up to your table asking if we'd like a refill. I never get ice in my soda drinks at any restaurant. I always say Diet Coke/Pepsi, no ice, and no lemon. It's never a problem at any restaurant including Chick. The soda is refrigerated why put ice in it and dilute it ? That way you get a full glass of soda. I don't want a glass of ice, I want a glass of soda. I don't use ice at home either, because the soda is refrigerated.

Thu, Apr 25, 2013 11:53pm
Moving back up... Earl Grey... that then would make you "my" someone who may know of someone who heard that it was rumored to have happened to someone else ....

As for Chik Fil A. There is history; there is the present. The old Chik Fil A was against homosexual marriage. Since last summer, it had a change of heart. It embraces homosexuals, it's in love with homosexuals, it has dropped all anti-homosexual funding, and the owner is now seen frequenting establishments with those well known to be gay allegedly to seek out their opinions and engage in inter-discourse strictly on an intellectual basis.... It is time to drop the homophobic slurs for that company now. To keep it up at this point is like blaming the Apostle Paul for Saint Stephan's death... He's guilty, but that moment is now irrelevant.

I happened to be eating out in a chain restaurant, and asked the manager who always stops by and sits at my table, Allan's questions. After about the sixth one, he got tired of typing on my laptop, so I quickly asked him verbally about the others and will correspond to the best of my memory...

Hi everybody. I will answer these questions for you.

Number 1. We do team service. No one is allowed to run their own food. It gets run in order, and the first food up goes out with the first person who walks by. No exceptions. You should tip on how well you like your server. Not on the helpers. We do this because if a server has two tables simultaneously, it is the only way we can keep the service standards high.

2. Sometimes it is the server's fault when apps come out after or with main course. Most places you should not pay for the apps that come after the meal. You should talk to someone with authority to adjust your bill. Usually a manager. Sometimes it is not the server's fault. If your app had to be prepped for instance, the food will beat it out. Instead of holding the entree, we would rather buy the app since the entre sitting warm messes up the flow of our kitchen until it is out the window.

3. In your observations do you notice what the others are eating? If your app takes 15 minutes and your entre takes 20, there is a good chance someone with a 3 min app and 10 min entre will get served before you. But, if your server forgot to ring up your total, then obviously she is to blame. That happens a lot. Check the ticket at the top to see when it was rung in. There is a begin time usually under the date.

4. Today's computers are user-friendly. It is easier for a server not to write down the order. Many know that guests want things written down, so they pretend to scribble so the guest thinks they are writing it down. The easiest way to take an order is by identifying the person with what they eat. This practice is encouraged by many of our guests who are impressed with this trick when the food comes out right and double-tip because of it. More of our mistakes occur when new people write things on the wrong line, and order it wrong.

5. Most people like friendly service. Our training guides tell them to be themselves and relate to people as they would outside of work. Some may be put off, but most enjoy it and come back for more.

6. Our servers are trained to take everything off that is not being used. Many people tip well because they see the servers working so hard, yet keeping their composure.

7... Ok, as mentioned above, this is me based on what he said: All servers carry their own bank and have to make change out of their pocket. When hurried they give you what ever they can. Big or little. It is hard to get change when everyone is busy so to keep you from waiting, you get what they have. He has heard of rounding-down to benefit the customer, but never rounding-up. He says sometimes when there is no coin in the server's purse, they cut you a break hoping you tip it back to them so they can pay that part of the bill when they settle out at the end.

8. He says as a manager he tells his servers if they are stuck and have to make a choice between refilling an $8 dollar drink or a free refill, do the smart thing and do the one which raises the sales of the restaurant by raising the guest check first. "That's what pays all their bills." (I'm curious who wouldn't take care in any business of a client who was spending more at the expense of one who wasn't?)

That was all his answers... I found it interesting and that was the reason for sharing, so hopefully you all did as well. Looking back I see he didn't touch of some of the questions raised by Allan, but anyways, I know a lot more now than I did.

Great questions, Allan.

Fri, Apr 26, 2013 4:32am
Chick-Fil-A found out that homophobia was bad for business. Serving mammon trumps serving God every time. So they had a big change of heart - thanks to their PR firm. And Jesus Jumpers are suckers to buy it; just like the Apostles were suckers when Saul of Tarsus saw an opportunity and showed up claimed he'd had a change of heart.

MikeFromDelaware: Wrong! I went to Chick-Fil-A a few times before they stuck their fundamentalist foot in their born again mouth. The soda taps are behind the counter. They fill the cups. There is no way to go back to the soda taps and refill your cup. Given the obscenely huge profit these places make on soda, they can afford to let people go back for refills. And they can afford give people a little more syrup and seltzer, instead of just ice. So, in addition to wanting to shove his anti-marriage equality "beliefs" on everybody else, Cathy is a cheap, money-grubbing SOB.

Besides, the chicken was rubbery and tasteless.

Allan Loudell
Fri, Apr 26, 2013 5:51am
Incidentally, the Jake's hamburger chain in Delaware is one fast-food chain at which I've seen a little cup for tips. Also, Deerhead Hot Dogs, which is sort of in between fast-food and a regular restaurant.

Mike from Delaware
Fri, Apr 26, 2013 8:27am
Billsmith: I'll overlook you implying that I'm lying to help out my Christian buddy Chick-fil-a.

I never said the customer refills their cup [For a man who's as smart as you want others to believe you are, and who is a real "nit picker" about how others write their posts, you sure don't read very well].

Each time we've gone to the Bear Delaware Chick, one of their folks has come up to our table and asked if we wanted a refill. I usually don't finish all the soda [remember no ice so I get more liquid than the average customer], so I say, "No thanks I'm fine." I assume, if you say yes please, they take your cup back up and refill it and bring it back to you. Next time we go to Chick I'll have to say yes, so I can actually see what they do, but that's what other restaurants do so it's a logical assumption that Chick does that too.

Kavips is correct in what he saying about Mr. Cathy. He hasn't changed his beliefs; he still believes homosexuality is wrong, but is learning how to love the sinner, hate the sin. Mr. Cathy has apparently realized that he wasn't giving Godly Love [Agape] to the LGBT folks and has changed his ways in how he's treating those folks. As all of us are sinners, including me and Mr. Cathy, who needs God's grace and love as much as anyone, his actions now better reflect what Jesus would do. Love that person, offer God's grace and compassion, yet not saying its a fine acceptable livestyle, it is still sin, like it or not.

I did a study on this using Strong's Exhaustive Bible Concordance of Hebrew and Greek words. There's no doubt in my mind, after doing this study that God does consider homosexual behavior of any kind to be sin. You don't like that, then go argue with God, I didn't write the Bible.

But that doesn't mean we, as Christians, should hate, or treat homosexuals badly, etc. Again Christ call us to Agape Love everyone, because we are no better than any other sinner, including gays/lesbians [Jesus went to the cross for gay/lesbians too so if those folks are good enough for Jesus then they should and better be good enough for the rest of us, again, because who are we to condemn and judge that's God's job, as we too will be judged by that same God]. I believe that's the lesson Mr. Cathy has learned and what he's now trying to do.

You might want to consider your blindness towards anyone who doesn't view homosexuality as you, as being people of hate, homophobes, intolerant, etc. Your vileness towards those folks blinds you to see any positive in those folks; yet you want those of us who don't have your view of homosexuality to see you [who has your views] and those who are homosexual [maybe you are that too, its none of my business either way] in a positive light. That trying to see others in a positive light thing, works both ways. Try it sometime.

As the old expression goes: you get more flies with honey than vinegar. I thought you'd appreciate the non-Biblical reference. Be at peace.

Fri, Apr 26, 2013 8:55am
kavips, As i posted before, Chik-fil-A has not backed-down on their beliefs concerning "traditional marriage" and family values. Cathy treated one of the leading gay activists trying to gather support to boycott his eatery with respect and treated him as a person...now they are friends with differing opinions and not enemies.

"In his column for the Huffington Post, Windmeyer said that although he and Cathy continued to see differently on the issue of  same-sex "marriage," they also found commonality: “We were each entirely ourselves. We both wanted to be respected and for others to understand our views. Neither of us could—or would—change. It was not possible. We were different but in dialogue. That was progress.”
The way Windmeyer viewed the Chick-fil-A president changed as he began to get to know him beyond his policy position. He saw the regret and sadness Cathy felt for the people treated unkindly in the name of Chick-fil-A. He saw Cathy take an interest in his life and his family, wanting to hear more about his perspective. He said the friendship helped him gain appreciation for Cathy’s commitment to being “a follower of Christ.”
“He had to face the issue of respecting my viewpoints and life even while not being able to reconcile them with his belief system,” Windmeyer wrote. “He defined this to me as ‘the blessing of growth.’ He expanded his world without abandoning it. I did, as well.”


Fri, Apr 26, 2013 9:34am
MikeFromDelaware: As I said, I had been to various Chick-Fil-A locations, BEFORE Cathy showed his true colors. I never saw anyone come around and offer refills to me or anyone else in the restaurant.

I did go to the company website and looked up the information on franchisees (owner-operators) for Bear and for locations I remember visiting. Bear is owned by Adam Marcus who also owns the Christiana Mall location (Harry Marcus owns Elkton). Neither Marcus apparently is involved in any of the locations I visited. So, possibly sending people out to offer refills is something Adam (and maybe Harry) Marcus does on his own initiative, not company policy. Personally, I would prefer to have the Marcus' make the fountain- machine customer-accessible, so I can eat my meal without being approached by employees and get a refill when I want one (not when they come around and offer one). Do the refill people expect tips? For the record, a couple of times at Chick-Fil-A locations I did visit, as I got up to leave, somebody offered to take and dump my tray for me (which was nice). I also avoid Wendy's (although I like some of their food items) because they don't let customers get refills either (and they put a lot of ice in the cup).

NPR did a story this week on audio for Supreme Court oral arguments being made available online for cases going back to 1955. They played an excerpt from arguments in Loving v. Virginia, the 1966 case which over-turned all laws against miscegenation (inter-racial marriage). I was struck by the similarity in the arguments against inter-racial marriage then and the arguments against same-sex marriage now.



Mike from Delaware
Fri, Apr 26, 2013 10:29am
Frankly Billsmith: I'd rather the help fill the cups, as McDonald's and Burger King both allow customers to fill their cups and to get refills. You don't know how clean someone's hands are, as they finger the lids [at least the employees are supposed to wash their hands]. Unless the owner of the particular McDonald's or Burger King is diligent in having someone out there constantly cleaning up, the soda area is a mess as folks overfill their cups with both soda and ice and then dump the stuff all over; folks let their kids help themselves, thus adding to the mess and unclean hands touching the lids and straws.

You say to-ma-to and I say tom-a-to. I do eat at Mickey D's and the King as well as Chick.

I can't speak for other Chick locations, but it seems that your dislike for Chick has more to do with Mr. Cathy's faith and beliefs than his company. That is your right. I just don't see it the same way you do, which is my right. So you avoid Chick, and I'll go there. I don't avoid restaurants based on their political or religious beliefs. I know of a popular restaurant in the metro area that my wife and I enjoy that's owned by a gay guy. I don't care. I like the food, etc.

It seems you have an agenda and those who don't agree with it are "lesser than thee". That's your right too, but you'll not convert many folks with that approach. Anytime the church has tried it, that approach fails miserably. That's not how Jesus would act. I realize you no longer call Christ Lord and Savior, so you probably don't care what Jesus would do, other than to bash Christians over the head with it when they miss the mark, in your view. It is what it is. There's room enough in America for both of us and our views. Be at peace.

Fri, Apr 26, 2013 10:54am
MikeFromDelaware: As I said, I didn't go to Chick-Fil-A before beyond checking it out. When I did, I wasn't that impressed. If Cathy had kept his big mouth shut, I'd still mostly go to Subway, where the food is healthy and they allow refills.

But what you say about me and my "agenda," I'd apply to you. You seem to like Chick-Fil-A (and make a point of bringing them up, even though they are not relevant to a discussion of tipping) BECAUSE you like the owner's agenda and it coincides with your agenda. Of course, you don't think you have an agenda. You think what you have is THE TRUTH.

What you call "outreach," or "saving souls," I call "bullying." I put up with it too long and now I fight back. There is not room in this country for both of us when Christians keep forcing themselves, their "beliefs," and their view of "morality" on everyone else. People like Wildman, Dobson, Robertson, Falwell, Graham, Jr. and others on the religious right (or American Taliban) have made it clear what they want to do if they ever take control; don't say it's my imagination.

Fri, Apr 26, 2013 11:29am
For the record...I'm the one who brought up Chick-fil-A and only to note that they have very courteous and helpful workers (even if they receive no tips). Chick-fil-A also has awesome waffle fries ;)

btw, I've been going to Chick-fil-A since they came to Delaware many years ago (First location I know of in our state was at the Concord Mall.

Mike from Delaware
Fri, Apr 26, 2013 11:37am
Billsmith: Actually EarlGrey brought up Chick in this thread, not me.

I don't go to Chick all that often, because it isn't convenient to where I live, but if we're down that way, it's a nice change of pace from the usual places we go for a quick lunch. So no, I don't go because of Mr. Cathy's beliefs. My wife had really liked Chick before I knew her, so she was the one who got me to try it [Frankly, I'd rather have a hamburger than a chicken burger].

When have those folks you mentioned above, or any other Christians, twisted your arm and said, "Repent heathen"? No one is forcing you, no one can; beliefs are personal, between you and God. All a follower of Christ can do is tell you about Christ, but more importantly they need to live that faith as St. Francis of Assisi said.

The problem you have is you don't like the fact that the Christians won't say the gay/lesbian lifestyle is a fine alternative "normal" way to live. THAT's the real issue for you. You don't agree with what the Bible says and want us to follow your "worldly views"; sorry can't do that.

If any of those folks ever ran for office, I'd not vote for them, or anyone else who is a preacher/pastor/priest, rabbi, and even more so televangelists, etc. I believe in a secular government, NOT a religious one. Every Christian I've ever talked with [be they Catholic, United Methodist, Lutheran ELCA/LCMS,Assembly of God, Charismatics] and discussed this have issue with, have the same view. We've seen the bloody history of when the church tries to run a government, including in Colonial America. So just as you've told me about LGBT folks not wanting to force the church to perform gay/lesbian weddings, etc., and I'm to believe you, I'm telling you that most Christians do not have any design to have the government be run by any church group [I know you won't believe that, because of some of the right-wing crap that gets said and the likes of Westboro Baptist Church, but realize these folks are a real splinter minority that frankly I don't believe know Christ].

That doesn't mean that there aren't those who'd like to see legislation to eliminate things like abortion, or to prevent gay/lesbian marriage, etc. I'm not one of those, I know the only way to change that sort of behavior is having a heart experience with Jesus Christ. The secular government is going to do what pleases the majority, and as many folks today don't care about those issues or even have a faith in God, etc., so like ancient Rome. this stuff is coming to pass. So don't lump all Christians into the same bag, just as you don't like it when folks on my side of the debate lump all gay/lesbians into the same bag. It works both ways.

Look Billsmith, you and I have beaten this horse to death here, so go ahead and post your reply and I'll give you the last word on this topic. I'm praying for you, and would enjoy discussing other issues with you, but the LGBT thing, the faith thing I believe we both know where the other is coming from. I respect your right to have your beliefs and world view, etc., and hope you'll give me that same respect back, but we just don't and won't agree. However, I'll pray for you as you must have been baptised at some point as a LCMS Lutheran and I believe God still wants you as one of his people, we worship the God of second chances [third, fourth, etc], and he loves us both, in spite of what we both truly deserve. Be at peace.

Sat, Apr 27, 2013 9:31am
MikeFromDelaware: With all due respect, I don't think you do know where I'm coming from. (1) I am very familiar with the doctrines of fundamentalist Christianity, in general, and the Missouri Synod, in particular, on these issues. (2) I really have not said what my personal views or preferences are on these issues. (3) My objection to organized fundamentalism and to individuals like Cathy, the Pope, Dobson, Wildman, Robertson, et al who insist on forcing their views on others through force of law and insist on pushing their views on others who have not asked to hear them using their accumulated wealth, power and access to media. Jesus had no use for such people or organizations and neither do I. Were they really following Jesus' teachings, they would try to lead good lives and help people and otherwise shut up.

All sorts of people read the Bible and come to all sorts of different conclusions about what god wants. Allow for the possibility that unless you have a burning bush in your backyard, you don't know what god wants. Just as you don't like entertainers who feel entitled to a platform, I don't like rich guys who peddle junk food who feel entitled to a platform. Cathy reminds me of Ossenburger:

"Where I lived at Pencey, I lived in the Ossenburger Memorial Wing of the new dorms. It was only for juniors and seniors. I was a junior. My roommate was a senior. It was named after this guy Ossenburger that went to Pencey. He made a pot of dough in the undertaking business after he got out of Pencey. What he did, he started these undertaking parlors all over the country that you could get members of your family buried for about five bucks apiece. You should see old Ossenburger. He probably just shoves them in a sack and dumps them in the river. Anyway, he gave Pencey a pile of dough, and they named our wing alter him. The first football game of the year, he came up to school in this big goddam Cadillac, and we all had to stand up in the grandstand and give him a locomotive--that's a cheer. Then, the next morning, in chapel, be made a speech that lasted about ten hours. He started off with about fifty corny jokes, just to show us what a regular guy he was. Very big deal. Then he started telling us how he was never ashamed, when he was in some kind of trouble or something, to get right down his knees and pray to God. He told us we should always pray to God--talk to Him and all--wherever we were. He told us we ought to think of Jesus as our buddy and all. He said he talked to Jesus all the time. Even when he was driving his car. That killed me. I just see the big phony bastard shifting into first gear and asking Jesus to send him a few more stiffs. The only good part of his speech was right in the middle of it. He was telling us all about what a swell guy he was, what a hot-shot and all, then all of a sudden this guy sitting in the row in front of me, Edgar Marsalla, laid this terrific fart. It was a very crude thing to do, in chapel and all, but it was also quite amusing. Old Marsalla. He damn near blew the roof off. Hardly anybody laughed out loud, and old Ossenburger made out like he didn't even hear it, but old Thurmer, the headmaster, was sitting right next to him on the rostrum and all, and you could tell he heard it. Boy, was he sore. He didn't say anything then, but the next night he made us have compulsory study hall in the academic building and he came up and made a speech. He said that the boy that had created the disturbance in chapel wasn't fit to go to Pencey. We tried to get old Marsalla to rip off another one, right while old Thurmer was making his speech, but be wasn't in the right mood. Anyway, that's where I lived at Pencey. Old Ossenburger Memorial Wing, in the new dorms." - The Catcher In The Rye

Mike from Delaware
Sat, Apr 27, 2013 11:45am
Billsmith: Holden Caulfield from Catcher in the Rye. I read that many years ago in high school. I really enjoyed that book back then. I remember laughing at many parts of that book. Obviously other parts were very sad. As I was reading your post above, I thought that it sounded familiar. Thanks for the walk down memory lane.

The author, J. D. Salinger, passed away within the past two or three months.

Sat, Apr 27, 2013 12:35pm
MikeFromDelaware: When I was in high school it was one of those "bad" books they didn't want us to read. So, of course, everybody read it. Now it's required reading. Times change. Pencey is based on Valley Forge Military Academy (on the Pennsy's Main Line), which Salinger attended. He is the reclusive writer in Field of Dreams (they changed his name for the movie, played by James Earl Jones). Salinger died January 27, 2010 at age 91.

Mike from Delaware
Sat, Apr 27, 2013 4:49pm
Billsmith: Catcher in the Rye was written in 1951, and I read it in 1968, in my junior year of high school. I'm assuming you may be a tad bit older than I [I'll be 62 in May] and that you may have read it in the early 60's or possibly even in the 50's when YES I'll bet it was considered to be a "bad" book. That must have been some "cutting edge" book in 1951. The same year the movie The Day the Earth Stood Still was released [although Sci-Fi was a far "tamer" story than Catcher]. Also, Patty Paige had a big hit that year "How Much is that Doggie in the Window", along with Rosemary Clooney singing Come on a my House a #1 song that year. So yes, Catcher must have really upset folks that year.

I know from reading articles that listed the names of books that have been banned by some schools around the nation over the years, that Catcher, was on the list.

Here's one list of some of the most challenged books.


Sat, Apr 27, 2013 5:50pm
MikeFromDelaware: According to the FAQ, the list to which you provided a link includes books people have tried to ban from public libraries, as well as from schools. That is somewhat scary. It is also why I see the religious right as a dangerous force.

Scanning the list of reasons why these books were banned, it's striking that people objected not to their overall them, content or character but to specific (and isolated) words. That's sick. I can just see some of these people scanning through pages of text to see of any character swears (without bothering to absorb any of the material of the book). Some other attempts were by people completely clueless about the book or the author's message. Maybe they hadn't read the book they wanted banned.

I suspect that Catcher became acceptable when boomers who went and read it on the Q-T grew up and became teachers (or parents) themselves. Several books on the list I ended up reading on my own (and in secret). Some I read because I liked the movie so much.

Mike from Delaware
Sat, Apr 27, 2013 11:12pm
Billsmith: there definitely are religious extremists who have banned books [I remember years ago reading about some fundamentalist types that banned "Peter Pan" from their school library because it has stuff in the story about levitation [the kids and Peter could fly - I'm serious]. However those fundamentalist types aren't the only folks as these two lists {I've included below} demonstrate. People on both sides of the isle politically and religious or non-religious can decide to ban books that they don't like or agree with. Some schools have banned the Bible.

In any case, its one thing for a parent to not want their child to read a book for whatever reason [that is a parent's right, but as you pointed out that will probably cause the child to go and sneak reading the book - forbidden fruit and all that; or they'll resent being the only kid in class who's dismissed to the library to study while the rest of the class does do the class work using the forbidden book - makes the kid feel like a goober- so the kid will still go and sneak reading it so parents doing this don't accomplish anything other than embarrassing their child]; but even so, those parents should not be able to keep other people's children from reading that book by banning it. Having the kids read some of these books could start some interesting conversations with the parents if they are open to such discussions.

This might be one area where you and I have some common ground, I'm not in favor of banning books.

Here are the two lists.

Catcher makes both lists.



Sun, Apr 28, 2013 9:08am
MikeFromDelaware: I will admit there are some good people in some churches. These people follow Jesus' teachings rather than preach at other people and try to pass laws against other people's sins. You seem to be a reasonable guy. The problem is reasonable people in Christianity stand by silently (possibly in the name of not judging) while the Cathys, Dobsons, Wildmans, Fallwells, Robertsons and assorted book banners do all the talking - and claim to do it in the name of Christianity. If I were Satan, and I wanted to discredit Christianity, these are the guys I'd turn loose (while I whispered in good Christians' ears to not judge and to make excuses for them).

Mike from Delaware
Sun, Apr 28, 2013 9:18pm
Billsmith: I don't make excuses for those folks, they may be a different place in their journey than I. I don't judge them any more than I judge others, that's God's job. I actually have, many times over the years, spoken out in Bible Studies, and Sunday School classes about parts of the church being political and being more focused on legislating morality than helping folks comes to Christ. I've been saying that stuff since I first heard about the Moral Majority back in the 1980's.

My belief is that when a person comes and receives the grace, mercy, and love of Christ, the Holy Spirit begins to change that person from the inside out. Their lifestyle will change, they will be far more aware of sins in their life than before becoming a follower of Jesus. So even if it is legal to have an abortion or go to a hooker, etc, because of Christ living in you, it won't matter whether that sort of thing is legal or now, you'll not want to do it. THAT's what a life changing walk with Jesus Christ can do, that heart change, not an intellectual change, a heart change. I'm certainly not the same person I was before coming to Christ. I've learned, made many mistakes, continued to learn, and am still learning about how to pass on that Christ centered love, grace, and compassion to others. We all strive for perfection in Christ, we won't ever reach that perfection, but our goal to seek, grow, and love as Christ does, so how can I judge those folks who too are on their own journey with Jesus Christ. Who am I to judge them.

I also don't judge those others outside of the church who want to ban books either. Both are wrong, you only seem to be bothered by the Christians who ban books, I'm bothered by both, because both are wrong.

Mon, Apr 29, 2013 5:30am
MikeFromDelaware: You do make assumptions about what bothers me and what doesn't. What gives you the idea I am "bothered" only when Christians ban books? Although, I do see moral majority types as a greater threat than PC types. That doesn't mean I approve of either. Besides, no PC types seem to lurk on this message board.

And as far as these moral majority types that you and I have named (and others like them), I don't see the Holy Spirit affecting much change in them - inside or outside. Jesus also said "wolves in sheep's clothing" would show up and take advantage of people. Too bad the apostles forgot about that when Saul of Tarsus came knocking.

Mike from Delaware
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 8:13am
Billsmith: I talked with my pastor yesterday about the "Lutheran Mass" issue and asked is it correct or incorrect to call it the Lutheran Mass [I told him about our discussions]. He said to tell you that the first Lutheran book for a service was called [he said it to me in German first and then translated as I'm not very bilingual] The German Mass. He went on to say that calling the Lutheran service the Lutheran Mass is not incorrect.

Its surprising how many former Catholics are Lutherans in both ELCA and LCMS Lutheran churches. Many of those went through a divorce, and as that is the unpardonable sin in the Roman church or had some other issue with the Catholic Church, they explored the Lutheran Church and liked the Lutheran Mass, as their service was very much like what they were used to, as both are Masses vs. a United Methodist service that has elements of the Mass in it, but isn't a Mass, or even more so a Baptist, or Assembly of God service, that don't want to be anything like a Mass.

Mon, Apr 29, 2013 9:16am
MikeFromDelaware: It makes sense that many people would, for various reasons, reject the doctrines or institution of Catholicism, and still appreciate the high church liturgy and classical music with choir and organ.

In The (red) Lutheran Hymnal the two forms of liturgy are Morning Prayer and The Order of Holy Communion, not the mass. The term "mass" is unique to the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. The Book of Common Prayer calls it "Holy Eucharist." Orthodox call it "Divine Liturgy" (as do Eastern Rite Catholics).

Mike from Delaware
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 10:36am
Billsmith: Something I've wanted to ask you, but keep forgetting, you were raised as LCMS Lutheran. Have you ever considered the ELCA Lutheran Church? They do ordain women, and as you probably know since 2009, I believe the year was, also decided that they'd also ordain gay/lesbians ministers and where legal, will also give the local church permission to marry gay/lesbians. From what I understand, the ELCA allows the local church in each Synod to decide if they'd accept a gay/lesbian pastor and whether or not they'd marry gay/lesbians, so that each local church won't be forced to do something they aren't comfortable doing, yet give those other congregations the freedom to accept a gay/lesbian pastor and to marry gay/lesbians. The ELCA, unlike the LCMS, has a more "liberal" interepretation of the Bible, than the LCMS, etc. [the LCMS say it has to be 6 24-hour days of creation, that Genesis 1 is to be taken literally]. Same Liturgy, so it would be the same [LCMS has some different hymns, but most are the same as the ELCA]. Both use a lectionary, but as you might guess both have their own, just as the Catholics have their own. Both are involved with the LCS [Lutheran Community Services].

I discovered that the ELCA will have joint services [not communion] but a general ecumenical-type service with others that the LCMS apparently forbids]. There's been some issue with a LCMS pastor getting in trouble with the President of the LCMS for participating in an ecumenical service after Watertown CT [apparently a similar thing also happened after 9/11]. That is so wrong in my opinion [this is something that I've found out about the LCMS I don't like].

But my point is, you might find a spiritual home in the ELCA Lutheran Church. There are quite a few ELCA Lutheran Churches in NCC, so you'd have a number to choose from. Just a thought.

Mon, Apr 29, 2013 11:59am
MikeFromDelaware: I did attend an ELCA church for a while several years ago. I had always appreciated the traditional liturgy. The music left me cold. Apparently, the pastor picked songs with lyrics that tied into his sermon, even if they were songs nobody in the congregation knew, liked, or really wanted to sing. It was not a "joyful noise." I was surprised to see that "Amazing Grace" is not in the Lutheran Hymnal (probably the best known and most popular hymn in the US church). They had added some nice touches since I was kid (they even did things to include kids in the service) but it wasn't the same without Elizabethan English.

In any case, while the two largest divisions of Lutheranism may differ on some theological fine points (which most people don't understand anyway), they both fall well within mainstream Christian theology and I don't accept that. If you know of a Unitarian-Universalist congregation that uses the high-church liturgy and old-fashioned popular hymns, I'd might be into that.

Mike from Delaware
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 1:26pm
Billsmith: There are two Unitarian Churches in the area that I know of: One just off Concord Pike, heading south from the Tallyville Firehouse, where there's a shopping center on the right heading south just past the Taco Bell; at the light after that shopping center, there's a sign and the church is on that side street [you can see it from Rt 202].

The other is on Polly Drummond Hill Road. Heading away from Kirkwood Highway [Rt2], follow Polly Drum Rd past the Assembly of God church, continue past Ebenezer United Methodist Church and over the top of the hill on left is that Unitarian Church.

I don't know anything about what their services are like. Good luck.

Mon, Apr 29, 2013 1:54pm
MikeFromDelaware: Thanks. Being close to Taco Bell is a big plus. I did attend a Unitarian service a few times. Nothing worth getting up on Sunday for. They had a group that sang songs from Broadway musicals. I like Broadway musicals but I have CDs for that. The service was somewhere between low-church (the kind where they have a pulpit where the altar should go and only do communion a couple of times a year - then it's little shot glasses of Welch's and squares of Wonder Bread passed around to the pews) and NPR "Weekend Edition Sunday."

Thing I hate most about services these days is somebody decided at some point in the last 30 or 40 years to have everybody shake hands with each other. And then you still can't get out the door at the end without shaking hands with the pastor. Love your neighbor is fine, but I don't want to have to make chit-chat or shake hands. Unitarians have "fellowship," which is like the worst cocktail party ever but without the aid of cocktails. Too bad there isn't a church for introverts.

I did go to an Episcopal service once. It did seem like a mass. Except for communion they had these big loaves of challah bread (not unleavened). They had all the kiddies come up to the altar and rip the domes of bread into little chunks with their grubby little, booger infested hands. No, thanks. I guess they think transubstantiation also has the effect of killing germs.

Mike from Delaware
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 2:45pm
Billsmith: I'm with you on that one. I remember one United Methodist church we were going to years ago, and they had a Wednesday night service with communion [first Wed of the month to go along with their first Sunday of the month communion]. The kids youth group [not teens] was meeting, and they'd be called up to the sanctuary to recieve communion with all of us. Problem was they let the kids go first. The pastor would hand you a piece of bread, you then dunked it in the chalice of [Methodist wine aka grape juice]. Naturally these kids would get theire hands into the grape juice and I too had the same reaction, no thank you. There you didn't even have the alcohol from the wine to kill any germs. The Methodists call this type of dunking the bread into the challice of juice the intinction method. Not partial to that at all.

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