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WDEL Blog: Allan Loudell

Is U.S. caught in destructive vicious circle?

The iconoclastic Brazilian journalist who correctly warned the world about Osama bin Laden two weeks before the 9/11 attacks offers a scathing critique of the Obama Administration's march to war in Syria...

(Although he cites the news account in MINT PRESS NEWS to which I previously threaded - "Syrians in Ghouta claim Saudi-supplied Rebels behind Chemical Attack" - which one of the co-authors, Dale Gavlak, has now disavowed.)

But, as far as I'm concerned, the genie is NOT back in the lantern when it comes to the intrigue surrounding the Saudi intelligence chief, Prince Bandar bin Sultan.

So, plenty to chew on in this caustic analysis from Pepe Escobar, the classic refutation to those who believe U.S. foreign policy and military history has been benign...


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MID-01-030913.html

Posted at 7:43am on September 3, 2013 by Allan Loudell

<- Back to all Allan Loudell posts



Comments on this post:

kavips
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 7:56am
Reports ongoing that Syria's head of medical services in Assad's chemical weapons branch has defected and will have a press conference shortly in Istanbul....

Furthermore the Israelis just confirmed they and the U.S. performed a missile test off Syria which fell harmlessly into the ocean; my guess is they were monitoring Syrian communications to follow the chain-of-command.

mrpizza
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 9:33am
I'm sorry, but America has lost much of the Divine Protection it once had when it was a righteous nation. The combination of affirming homosexuality and outlawing Biblical references of any kind from the public square in and of itself has greatly diminished this nation's ability to protect itself and make correct decisions thereof.

The only thing holding this country up at all is the prayers of the saints. God told Lot he would spare Sodom for just one righteous. In our favor is that there are still many more righteous people in America than just one, but the deeper the nation descends into decadence, the harder it will be for the righteous to keep it afloat.

billsmith
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 10:01am
Pizza is a traitor. Go back to Belorussia.

MikeFromDelaware: How can you publicly associate yourself with a religious movement that includes people like Pizza. Silence implies consent - and approval of Westboro types like Pizza.

Israel is firing missiles. Israel has The Bomb. How come they get away with the kind of sh --- stuff and the US wants to start a war with anybody else who tries it? Is the Zionist Lobby - and the Zionist media - all that powerful? (Probably, yes.)

Mike from Delaware
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 10:39am
Mrpizza is a follower of Christ, just as I am. Even the original disciples [the Apostles] didn't see eye to eye on all sorts of things, as you know. So why should it be different today? Mrpizza and I agree on the key thing, the Risen Christ as Lord and Savior. We'll disagree on other things, granted, but as all of us, even non-believers, are looking through smoke-colored glass, none of us will see clearly until the Perfect [Jesus] comes.

kavips
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 11:05am
Mr. Pizza's argument can backfire on him. The Divine Protection was lost when we cut taxes, allowing the accumulation of wealth without the stewardship of returning a portion of it to reinvest in our country. The economic policies that started with Reagan, are the sins that brought America down. If you want salvation, raise the taxes on all those making a million or more, raise them to where they were when Reagan was elected President...

Then, the Divine protection will return. Allowing gays to marry is no biggie; if that is even a sin, it is tiny compared to the enormous problems our protect-the-wealthy tax laws have created, possibly ruining America forever.

Only Democrats can save us now, and return us to the Providential Protection we had from 1930 through 2000!

EarlGrey
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 11:13am
Well said Pepe! We really shouldn't be involved in Syria...though many theorize "we" are already involved and Benghazi was where/how arms were getting to the "freedom fighters" in Syria.

I would like to know why we need to attack yet another country and start yet another war we can't afford when our government can't protect our own southern border or stop the chaos in Mexico (More than 12 thousand people were killed down there last year thanks to the narco-terrorists)...Mexico does effect our National security and a lot of non-day laborers cross the border into our country daily.
If we could create jobs in Mexico, secure the border, ensure businesses here use E-verify, and help end the narco-wars...our Illegal Immigration issues (trespassers) would largely solve themselves and strengthen this country (and our southern neighbor's)rather than weaken as is the no-win war in Syria.

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-02/mexico-drug-related-deaths-rose-to-12-394-in-2012-milenio-says.html

mrpizza
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 11:20am
kavips: The divine protection started to erode with Murray vs. Curlett, and then much further with Roe vs. Wade. The recent legal affirmation of homosexuality has dragged us into an even deeper quagmire. To add to that, the situation at the Mexican border is far worse than anything happening in the middle east, yet it's being largely ignored by the media and covered up by both Republicans and Democrats.

Maybe gay marriage is a little thing to you compared to taxes, but God sees it totally different. From what I've seen in scripture, God views homosexuality to be even worse than abortion, and I'm sure he considers that to be pretty darn bad.

No, Democrats can't save us, and at this point, neither can Republicans. Your money ain't gonna save you either, I don't care if you have a guziollion dollars. Only a nation turning from the things that offend God and turn back to him can be saved.





mrpizza
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 11:23am
billsmith: Just a reminder that Westboro is toilet-trained.

Shawn
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 1:09pm
May I ask a question of the the mrpizza's and other religious of the blog?

If you're as religious and literal-interpretation as y'all say you are, and if Assad did use these weapons against innocent people, doesn't the Bible say we MUST stand up for them and intervene on their behalf?

"Do not stand by while your neighbor’s blood is shed." LEV 19:16
"Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves; ensure justice for those being crushed." PROV 31:8
"Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy." PS 82:3
"Like a muddied spring or a polluted fountain is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked." PROV 25:26
"On the day you stood aloof while strangers carried off his wealth and foreigners entered his gates and cast lots for Jerusalem, you were like one of them." Obadiah 1:11

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating a military strike. Just trying to understand... is it that you don't want to do this (and if so, why not?)? Or you just don't like the idea because it was Obama's idea? Were you this vocally opposed when W attacked Iraq?

billsmith
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 1:28pm
MikeFromDelaware: Pizza invokes Jesus' name as justification for his opinions. I don't see him practicing the precepts or values Jesus taught or living his life following Jesus example. The "liberal Christians" on that website to which you referred me seem to see the example Jesus set as most important. This is in contrast to those Christians who seem to place greater importance on we're right - you're wrong, we're going to heaven and you're going to hell.
I say that what you and too many Christians see as the "key thing" actually distorts Jesus' teachings.

Mike from Delaware
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 1:33pm
Shawn: I was very vocal about being against going into Iraq. I wanted Bush Jr to wait for Hans Blix and the UN teams to finish looking for WMD's and said so publicly on my radio talk show. War shouldn't be our default position.

Yes the Old Testament is full of war stuff, but the New Testament [the new covenant that incorporates the words of Jesus are very different]. I'm not saying we should never go to war, but it should be the exception [the last resource when all else has been tried] rather than the rule.

I also agree with EarlGrey that Mexico and the Mexican/US border are a bigger threat to American national security than is Syria, yet we do nothing to fix THAT problem. That's not a slam on Obama and the DEMS, but a slam on BOTH GOP and DEMS. This problem has been festering since before Reagan. Heaven forbid we address and fix that problem. No we're too busy sticking our noses into everyone else's problems.

The other thing to consider is Russia apparently has at least one Army base within Syria [kind of makes that their turf]. Do we really want to accidentally bomb a Russian Army base or kill some of their soldiers?

How would we react if say Russia had some issue with Italy and "accidentally" bombes our Air Force base there?

This really isn't our fight. Let the Russians deal with it. They can spend their money and have their men/women die for another war that won't make a dime's worth of difference when all is said and done.

Shawn
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 2:18pm
MFD: I hear you, and agree... I focus much more heavily on NT than OT. But there are those who use OT scripture to back up all kinds of arguments today (anti gay marriage, for example). You can't pick and choose which parts of the OT are ok for your purposes, and which are "updated by the NT". So for those who do use the OT to speak against homosexuality (mrpizza), I'm curious how those specific OT verses mesh with their views on Syria.

And again, I'm not for us getting involved. It hasn't helped in Iraq, it hasn't helped in Afghanistan... why do we think it'll work here? If the UN and the Arab League won't join us, then there's a sign there... we shouldn't be there.

Mike from Delaware
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 3:16pm
Billsmith: You can't have one without the other. IF Jesus was only here to do good, then he'd have been a great social worker, but his main mission WAS to bring salvation to all. The good things we do, should be as a result of having Christ/Holy Spirit dwelling within us. I know you're familiar with the expression of battling the flesh vs the spirit.

If we do our good deeds as a way to prove our worthiness of God's love, we puff ourselves up and begin to think we more of ourselves than we should and in our minds become little gods. Where we want to world to revolve around us. But when we take up our cross each day, and allow God to give us his love and grace as well as his guidance then our works become far more valuable, because then the motive for doing them is very different. We expect nothing in return. We are passing on God's love and grace to others, and nothing more. There's no hidden agenda. It's that simple. This is why I have a problem with the "Prosperity Gospel" that Joel Ostein and others preach. Give to God and get a check in the mail isn't God's plan.

Our society prefers to hear the Prosperity Gospel and runs from hearing take up your cross and follow me.

As I said, there will be issues, etc, that Mrpizza and I won't see eye to eye on, but that's not my problem, that's God's and he'll straighten out both of us in eternity.

Shawn: As I said earlier somewhere on this blog, about Galileo, as we learn more from Science, our understanding of what God's word says will also improve. So Scripture is never wrong, but how I interpret it may be and as I learn more, might have to adjust my interpretation [seeing through smoked colored glass, etc]. This was Galileo's attitude towards the scripture vs Science thing. They aren't opposed to each other. Scripture tells you how to get to Heaven and Science tells you how the Heaven's work. Both have their jobs to do and neither replaces the other. God created both, no conflict.

kavips
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 3:47pm
When trying to determine whether to use the eye for an eye of the old testament, or the forgiveness promoted by the New Testament, a short look at history might provide guidance.

The Jews who promoted the Old Testament policy of revenge, were almost wiped out. On the other hand, Christians who back in the early days promoted give everything you have, to promoted forgiving their enemies, carrying their packs an extra mile, pretty much now dominate global civilization. Asia is the only geographical area not dominated by the Christian faith..

One method causes you to lose, one method causes you to win.

Based on this lesson, we should forgive Syria, and work to convert Assad into a missionary for Christ.....

EarlGrey
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 5:06pm
"If you're as religious and literal-interpretation as y'all say you are, and if Assad did use these weapons against innocent people, doesn't the Bible say we MUST stand up for them and intervene on their behalf?"

Shawn: How will bombing the evil dictator (and possibly killing thousands more innocents in the process) help the innocent people caught in the middle of this violent civil war between the dictator and Al-Qaeda? I guess I just can't see how anything our "military might" does can help the poor defenseless people stuck in the middle of chaos and pure evil on both sides of this fight.

If I believed that bombing would help to solve the problem rather than create an even larger one then maybe it would make sense...but I don't believe it will solve anything.

WWJD? Pray to His Father, pray for our leaders to make wise decisions and pray for the safety of those poor innocent families in Syria and in the rest of the world where violence reigns.
His Father led the Israelites out of Egypt and crushed the "military might" of the Egyptians with the Red Sea...Assad is very similar to the Pharoah (both hearts have been hardened and both wanted control)...I guess the Al-Qaeda of those days would have been the Philistines and the Israelites defeated them through a little unknown shepherd named David. God works in mysterious ways.


mrpizza
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 6:29pm
Shawn: I'm going to address this as simply and as honestly as I can. My "religion" is that I'm a follower of Jesus Christ. My church is Word of Life Christian Center, which by the way, Mike from Delaware attended once upon a time. His reasons for leaving are unknown to me, but I suspect his misunderstanding of the prosperity gospel had something to do with it.

At Word of Life, their motto is "holding forth the word of life". The Bible is the word of life. It isn't just salvation. Jesus said he came that we may have life and that more abundantly. That's every area - not just keeping our soul from going to hell.

To address the differences between Mike and I, the best way I know to describe it is that I take the whole word at face value whereas Mike attaches the words "yeah but" at the end of most scriptures, especially if it has to do with prosperity. I'm not saying this to try to put him down, but that's the best way I can illustrate it. Don't take it personally, Mike.

Allan Loudell
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 6:37pm
Once again, gentlemen, we're veering into a religious discussion.

On Open Friday/Weekend Forum posts, fine. But I really fear that nearly EVERY blog post gets diverted in this direction, precluding further discussion of the original issue.

Mike from Delaware
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 7:47pm
Mrpizza: no offense taken, our understandings of the scriptures are different.

OK, Allan has asked that we not engage in religious discussions during the week & save that for the Friday / weekend free for all. As the one who probably posts the most religious thoughts here (I've got such a big mouth - see why I loved doing a talk show) I'll honor Allan's request & save that type of thought & commentary for the Friday/ weekend free for all.

As far Syria goes & getting us back on topic, I still say let the Russians & the French deal with it. Hopefully the Congress will tell the Prez NO!!! Hopefully he will listen & follow their recommendation & no try to go it alone. I guess we wait to see what the Congress votes to do.

mrpizza
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 8:01pm
Okay Allan, I too will refrain. I do feel my original post was relevant and I didn't expect any reaction other than the usual Bill Smith/Kavips arguments, so I was rather surprised that Shawn had some genuine questions and I wanted to offer him the courtesy of an answer.

As for the original topic, there's not much more to be said. I think we need to defer to Israel regarding middle eastern issues. I think they have a greater capability to handle the matter than we do, and I would also add that they probably have more of God's blessing at this point than we do.

mrpizza
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 8:05pm
To Shawn: Please check back during the weekend and I will further expound on your questions. I appreciate your interest.

EarlGrey
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 11:40pm
I was wondering why there was a recent influx of Christians into Syria over the past few years...it seems they fled Iraq after Bush disarmed them and the U.S. declined to allow them to flee to our country.

" With few places to go, most Christians who fled Iraq were forced to go to the last seemingly safe place for Christians in the Middle East, and that was Syria. Christians were the largest group in Jaramana, Syria, even before the first Iraqi Christians showed up seeking refuge. During the Iraq war, the city of Jaramana, which lies just southeast of Damascus, grew quickly. More than 100,000 Iraqi Christians fled to the safety of Jaramana and started new lives. It was in Jaramana and cities like it that Christians found the stability and safety they lacked in Iraq."
http://mobile.wnd.com/2013/08/muslims-slaughtering-syrian-christians/

EarlGrey
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 11:53pm
"There are no military targets in Jaramana, Syria, but the jihadist “rebels” supported by President Obama claim Christians back the Assad government; therefore, killing Christian civilians including children is the will of Allah. Fatwas approve both robbery and rape. No amount of butchery by the “rebels” seems to dissuade Obama from supporting them.

This time, the Iraqi Christians who fled Islamic oppression in their home country have no place in which to escape. Syria was the last of the Middle-East nations with a secular government that was functional. Egypt and Lebanon are no longer stable, and the United States only encourages Muslim immigrants, not Christians from the Middle East. Syrian Christians, who have lived in Syria since the time of the great evangelist St. Paul, have no place to run, either. Christian enclaves such as Jaramana are where they must stand and fight for survival."

Allan Loudell
Wed, Sep 4, 2013 5:55am
Mr. Grey...

The irony is Iraqi Christians probably had a better life under Saddam Hussein than under what has followed.

From all I've seen, the Christian exodus has been to the Americas & Australia, not to elsewhere in the Middle-East.

The United States encourages only Muslim immigrants from the Middle-East? Then how do you explain all the Coptic Orthodox Egyptians in Delaware? Or beyond the Middle-East, Christians from such Christian-Muslim African nations as Nigeria and Cameroon?

Allan Loudell

Mike from Delaware
Wed, Sep 4, 2013 8:00am
Looks like Russia's Putin is finally weighing in on the Syrian issue.

Below is the link from CBS News, this sentence below is from CBS:

"President Vladimir Putin warned the West against taking one-sided action in Syria but also said Russia "doesn't exclude" supporting a U.N. resolution on punitive military strikes if it is proven that Damascus used poison gas on its own people."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57601235/putin-russia-might-let-u.n-ok-strike-against-syria/

EarlGrey
Wed, Sep 4, 2013 8:32am
Mr. Loudell: In the linked article I had attached above it said that the Muslim/Christian refugees admitted to The States was a 10:1 ratio...the Bush administration did not want to appear to be pandering to the Christians.
And yes in Iraq, Libya, and Egypt the Christians were better off before our country "helped"...if we "help" in Syria the same will again happen but now there is nowhere for these Christians to go much like the Jews who were turned away from our country during their extermination under Hitler.

"Of those who fled Iraq, very few were allowed into the United States. In fact, in 2007 the small village of Sodertalje, Sweden, took in twice as many Iraqi Christian refugees as the whole United States did. For every one Christian Iraqi who was actually allowed to come to the United States, at least 10 Muslim Iraqis were given green cards. The Bush administration feared giving the impression that Iraqi Christians were being favored, and therefore they were placed last in line, behind Muslims, for entry into the United States."

EarlGrey
Wed, Sep 4, 2013 8:35am
*edit
The linked article in my previous post stated that the ratio of Muslim/Christian refugees from Iraq was 10:1...

Allan Loudell
Wed, Sep 4, 2013 8:41am
But remember Christians represent but a small percentage of the Arab world. And non-Christian Arabs are persecuted too.

kavips
Wed, Sep 4, 2013 8:46am
The secret to the MidEast crises is to put China in charge.

What? You might say?

And you would be right to express surprise. So why China?

One, it is neutral, not "Soviet" and not US... The Cold War polemics are starting to creep back into that region now strictly because of Syria, and putting in the Chinese would alter the dynamics considerably. It would have the same effect as putting secular law upon warring factions to constrain religious fervor. The Chinese would not care about Christian, Jew, or Sunni or Shiite. They would care about keeping the peace.

Second, they have enough boots which can be put on the ground to do some good.

This accomplishes a lot for the US,and helps Russia a little too. The Mid East is quicksand, a quagmire. As does any sharp CEO when presented with a thorny problem, one possibly prone to fail, we should appoint a Vice President to be in charge. For one, they would be free to experiment, and can possibly discover solutions beyond our capability, and two, it frees us up from a multitude of problems allowing us to deal with other important matters.

If China wants to be a global power, it should learn now that with that responsibility, comes a cost. A cost in lives, munitions, and money. Putting China in charge of the Mid East region, as financial benefactors as well as a military powerhouse, could siphon off a little of their aggressive spirit now for lack of a worthwhile target, is aimed at a couple of little rocks off the Philippines and Japan.

Putting China in charge is really no different than any form of arbitration. When you had a divorce, employee dispute, or business disintegration, all situations where one does not trust the other person, having a neutral third party doing the negotiations for you, puts ice water on the fires of misguided passions.

China could play that role.

Finally, by making China a part of the solution, you stop making China part of the problem. As is often done on these pages, it is easy to criticize someone from afar, when one does not know those upon which one is supplying advice. For example, now China because it is so removed, can without consequence, say things like: "of course Iran should have "peaceful" nuclear energy". But, lol, when you have Iranians actually shooting at you, or bombing your vehicles by one proxy group or another, you might think twice about giving them the tools to make a weapon large enough to flatten a modern city. This would tend to put China on our side in a lot more circumstances before the UN, than happens now.

The Mid East, which once had America over the oil barrel, is now no longer vital to America's interests. And their Muslim radicalism is far more dangerous to China with large western populations of Muslims, than to the US if such radicalism were to ever root there. The Chinese actually have a vested interest to keep it contained....

It is only fair that China takes on some of the policemen costs of being a global power. Right now, they are getting the benefits, and making interest on the money they loan America to foot the bill for their protection....




Shawn
Wed, Sep 4, 2013 8:52am
But Allan... religion IS relevant! For the mrpizza's and MFD's of the world, by their own admission, everything they say/do/believe is based on and grounded in their view of religion, their interpretation/understanding of the Bible. So the only way I can understand their viewpoint is to ask questions about their religion. It's not off-topic at all, because religion factors into every decision they make. They're not looking at the questions about Syria from a strictly secular view because, to them, secular thinking is the cause of the issues we see today. It's impossible to have such a discussion WITHOUT discussing religion as well.

Sorry, Allan, but if you're going to say religious discussions are off-topic, there's no point in my continued participation in this blog! I'm here to try to better understand (and, yes, sometimes poke holes in) the theories of the uber-religious right. If religion is off-topic, then there's no point for me to be here.

(mrpizza/MFD/Earl, forgive me for speaking for you, there, and I apologize if I'm off base... just trying to understand why that line of questioning would be "off-topic".)

Allan Loudell
Wed, Sep 4, 2013 9:29am
Shawn...

I think we have to distinguish between someone commenting on the topic - and introducing a religious component within the context of that topic - and endless back-and-forth about the merits of one religion over another, or religion vs. agnosticism vs. atheism.

At times, it's become excessive on this blog - diverts from the main discussion - and, I fear, alienates others who might comment on the main points.

We've had several folks here who've gotten into private religious boxing matches which eventually take us far away from the original subject. And, as you know, it's gotten strident and personal.

Allan Loudell


Shawn
Wed, Sep 4, 2013 9:48am
Allan - yes, religion-bashing is one thing. But I don't think that's what I was doing here. I was asking a specific question of mrpizza et al, of how they reconcile specific Bible passages (the book that guides their lives) with non-intervention in Syria. They, then, answered my inquiry. How was this diverting from the main discussion? I understand the point you're making of the kinds of discussions you want to avoid, but I really don't feel we were having one of those discussions when you told us we were getting "off-topic".

(And ironically, aren't we even MORE off-topic now, debating if religion is off-topic? :) )

I get it, it's your blog, and you want to direct the conversation. But by inviting our comments, it's no longer JUST your blog... it's ours, too. Don't we get some say in where the conversation goes, if we're genuinely curious about the others who join us here?

Allan Loudell
Wed, Sep 4, 2013 9:55am
Fair points.


EarlGrey
Wed, Sep 4, 2013 10:08am
But remember Christians represent but a small percentage of the Arab world. And non-Christian Arabs are persecuted too.

...yes, approximately 10% of the populations in Iraq, Egypt and Syria were Christian but the remaining 90% of the population are turning against them as Civil Wars break out and Islamists gain control..Christians are the new scapegoats blamed for the chaos and wars in these countries(just as they were scapegoated by Nero for his fires). It is also very similar to the scapegoating of the Jews under Hitler's National Socialist takeover of Germany.

Mike from Delaware
Wed, Sep 4, 2013 10:44am
Allan: It is an interesting phenomenon, that as our nation has become far more "secularized", many folks know nothing of the Bible, the Christian faith. Sadly many don't even know who Jesus Christ is, they think that those words are cuss words, I'm serious or think that God's last name is Damn, again I'm being totally serious. Many only know what they hear about Christianity, Jesus, the church, etc., from such folks as Bill Maher as he spouts his anti-Christianity rants in his "comedy" routines or as portrayed in TV shows [usually the half-crazed loon carrying a large Bible is the axe-murderer in the story - remember when it used to be the butler who did it - haha]. They have no concept of using the Bible and the teachings of Jesus as a guide to living.

That was the spirit in which I took Shawn's question. He does make a fair point as you said. So maybe that sort of discussion might be allowed, with the rule of ANY bashing of other's beliefs, faith, denominations, their person, their career, in other words bashing/bad mouthing in general, etc., etc., will simply be deleted. None of our comments should be personal in that way.

Keeping it a discussion for learning and clarification on an issue, which I believe is what you are seeking too. That way the "family feud non-sense" disappears and when it appears, you simply delete it.

Obviously, the main thrust of the discussion shouldn't be religious unless it is actually a religious topic, like when the Pope says something, or a church denomination makes a statement of some sort, or does something that makes the news, etc. Then it is a religious topic, but still the no bashing rule would still apply. Someone can disagree with something the Pope says without bashing him, the Catholic Church, or those who are Catholics, etc. Same for any other religious group.

Sort of treating each other here as we'd want to be treated- dare I say, the "Golden Rule" that Jesus taught us?

So we don't end up now spending the day going back and forth on this, give us your bottom line, and I'll honor whatever that is. You are the moderator, so you get the final say.

Thanks again for providing this forum.
Mike from Delaware

Allan Loudell
Wed, Sep 4, 2013 11:06am
Let me apply now both secular and religious principles to the debate over Syria:

I would argue a unilateral (or nearly unilateral) U.S. military intervention in Syria would violate all, or nearly all, the points of the so-called Powell Doctrine; traditional Just War principles (St. Thomas Aquinas); and International Law.

Allan Loudell

Mike from Delaware
Wed, Sep 4, 2013 11:52am
For those not familiar with the Just War concept, I found a couple of sites dealing with that topic of Just War. Both offer some history as well, both are worth a visit: the first site is Catholic and the second site is Lutheran. Enjoy.

Here is a clip from the Catholic Answers site and its link:

" most authoritative and up-to-date expression of just war doctrine is found in paragraph 2309 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It says:

"The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
there must be serious prospects of success;
the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition."

http://www.catholic.com/documents/just-war-doctrine


Here is a clip from the Lutheran LCMS site with its link:

While the Lutheran confessional writings do not treat the subject of war at length, they
do contain significant references to it (for example, in Luther's commentary on the
Lord's Prayer in the Large Catechism, in Article 21 of the Augsburg Confession, and in
Article 4 of The Apology of the Augsburg Confession).
Most important, perhaps, is the specific reference to just wars in Article 16 of the
Augsburg Confession: "Christians may without sin ... engage in just wars, serve as
soldiers. ... ." Lutheranism inherited the just-war doctrine.".......

www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=525‎Cached

Mike from Delaware
Wed, Sep 4, 2013 1:11pm
I also found a link that provides the Powell Doctrine, to read the full article with a more in depth commentary on each point of the Powell Doctrine click on link below:

This is the Powell Doctrine as put forth by Colin Powell when he was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

1. Is a vital national security interest threatened?

2. Do we have a clear attainable objective?

3. Have the risks and costs been fully and frankly analyzed?

4. Have all other non-violent policy means been fully exhausted?

5. Is there a plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement?

6. Have the consequences of our action been fully considered?

7. Is the action supported by the American people?

8. Do we have genuine broad international support


http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/09/03/applying_the_powell_doctrine_to_syria


So from reading these three links on Just War, a Catholic View, a Lutheran View, and Colin Powell's view, can we conclude at this point that going into Syria would be a Just War?

In my opinion, I must say NO. That isn't political, but based on my understanding of the Just War concept.

EarlGrey
Thu, Sep 5, 2013 2:34pm
Who is actually telling the truth about Syria?
Kerry/0bama claim that more than 1,400 people (in addition to the estimated 100,000 already killed in this Civil War) were killed by Assad using chemical weapons...but in an interview by Mr Loudell it seems the more realistic number is around 300.
Kerry/0bama blame Assad and Putin blames the "rebels" for using the chemical weapons. Attached below is the Russian's side of the story since we keep hearing Kerry/0bama/Coons side of the story.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/09/05/201268/russia-releases-100-page-report.html#.UijKVWS9LTo


kavips
Thu, Sep 5, 2013 3:18pm
Earl, in answer to your question, there is a network in the Middle East that is rather accurate. Mainly secular journalists in Israel, Egypt, and Turkey, who pass info among themselves. I'm sure Allan's contact, Edward Yeranian is hooked into it, since his commentary ofter repeats theirs.

The French allegedly have video of the rockets fired from Syrian-controlled territory, which allegedly is included in their report. They state 300 were hit. That was corroborated by the Russians, and Saudis, picked up by the British newspapers and published now a week ago.

It appears U.S. intelligence is totally out-of-whack right now. How they found 1100 casualties appears to have other intelligence agencies stumped.

It seems the same fallacies in the C.I.A. that were responsible for the misallocation of real intelligence on the ground in Iraq back in 2002, are again in play today....

Although that may not answer your question of who to believe, it should give you enough guidance to know who NOT to believe.

EarlGrey
Thu, Sep 5, 2013 3:37pm
"It appears the US intelligence is totally out of whack right now. How they found 1100 causalities appears to have other intelligence agencies stumped."
...sad but true kavips.

These are the same ones that pushed the story a B-movie caused Benghazi. Maybe they should get the facts straight before attacking a country already in the midst of a Civil War.

mrpizza
Thu, Sep 5, 2013 8:40pm
EarlGrey: This is something I've said several times over the years and have been thought of by some as exaggerating, but I'm truly concerned that in the next 10-20 years Christians are going to end up fleeing America as a result of what Obama and those who either agree with him or don't have the will to stop him have allowed to happen. Already, Christianity is being subordinated to all other religions when it comes to favorable or unfavorable treatment in the public square so I can't help but think America could turn into Medieval Scotland.

EarlGrey
Fri, Sep 6, 2013 8:19am
mrpizza: Where would you flee to? Russia?

As Reagan once said, "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it on to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free."

Stand and fight.

Mike from Delaware
Fri, Sep 6, 2013 10:07am
I remember Josh McDowell's book back in the 1980's that discussed Intolerance. It had already started then [political correctness was in its infant stages then], but has progressed over the past 30 years.

What I find of interest though, is that St. Paul never worried about how he was treated or mistreated [he didn't enjoy it to be sure, but it wasn't his focus]. Paul's focus was bringing Christ to others. If one of today's Christians, in America, were to be put in jail, because of his/her faith as Paul, would that person's memoirs show only how that Christian ministered and preached the Word, no matter the location [seeing each circumstance as a new audience to reach for Christ], or moaning and groaning about their hardship and troubles, etc., etc.>

Yes, I too, have concerns about how the Christian community is under fire more and more in America. But what concerns me more is how parts of the "Christian" community are bringing this on us, by THEIR actions of hatred, not love.

The Westboro Baptists are #1 on this hit parade. The Florida pastor or pastors who burn Korans. The pastors and fellow Christians who bash and spew hatred towards the LGBT folks... Whatever happened to Love the Sinner, hate the sin??? So-called followers of Christ who have no problem with giving away Trillions of dollars for corporate welfare, and tax-breaks, tax-cuts, etc., for the wealthiest people while they foam at the mouth that some poor person got a free meal via food stamps. I could go on and on, but you get my point.

So is it any wonder that the non-Christian hates the Christian community? Where is the Love, Grace, and Forgiveness that Jesus offers in all of this?

We, as the church, spend too much time trying to legislate our beliefs on our society. Jesus, Peter, and Paul didn't. They essentially ignored Rome and brought the Love of Christ to their society. THAT should be our focus.


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